Academic levels

Q: academic level of chinese, maths and english compared to other schools with ib system?


I'll start off this discussion by saying that I have no problems with the level of academics at ISF.  I'll also say that I don't spend a lot of time (actually no time at all) comparing or discussing the academic level of my children with other people either within ISF or outside ISF.  Thereby I may just make everything I subsequently say completely invalid, but that is my caveat to what follows.


My children came from an IB school which was rather free and easy.  When they entered ISF they had gaps in writing, reading and maths.    ISF has largely closed those gaps (with a bit of extra effort from ourselves), plus has given them an unbelievable fluency in Chinese.


IB is a framework.  Within that framework, schools set their curriculum.  Which leaves room for interpretation and decisions at what stage / age specifics are filled in.


The curriculum at ISF is demanding.  A few weeks back, someone with kids at the Canadian school (also IB) saw my kids doing homework inbetween their music classes and commented to me "that stuff is hard!"


It's hard for me to comment on the Chinese, but they're speaking it, and reading it and writing it.  My G3 child does all 3 better than I do after a rigourous year of full time university study.  Most "moderate" Chinese parents I know are extremely satisfied with the level.  Some "extreme" Chinese parents comparing their kids to those in local Chinese schools complain that we need more, more characters, more poems, more homework, more tests, more vocabulary more everything.  I say, let them have more - on their own in the privacy of their own homes and leave the rest of us out of their fanaticism. 


Seriously though, the biggest problem for non-Chinese families is vocabulary.  (Warning - scary information to follow) Our word banks start from a very low base and our kids spend most of their time trying to play catch-up.  Just think about it.  The average 5 year old has a vocabulary of 1500 words in their native language.  By age 6 that has increased to 5,000 to 14,000 words (and the kids we're dealing with are not on the low end of the scale) and they're adding words at a rate of 5-10 per day. They can produce sentences of 5-7 words in a (mostly) grammatically correct structure.  A non-Chinese speaker has to get all that and more within a year or so.


How about the (mostly) Cantonese speakers?  The subject of overlap between Cantonese and Mandarin is not without it's political overtones.  The best information I could find was a quote from DeFrancis ("The Chinese language: Fact and Fantasy") which says that the overlap is:  Grammar 80%, vocabulary 60% and pronunciation 40%.   I haven't read the book, so I can't vouch for the validity of the numbers, all I know is that the Cantonese speakers in my class appear to learn Mandarin with the greatest of ease!


I will also say when I speak to other multi-lingual families, such as my French or Dutch friends, their biggest concern for their children is that they're not picking up vocabulary in their native languages fast enough or as fast as their peers "back home" are doing.   ANSWER - read, read, read to your kids in the target language and then read some more.

Mathematics - they receive this in both languages with not much overlap between which topics are given in which language.  For the English component of maths they use "Everyday Mathematics" (which I personally hate, but it appears most teachers do too and teach around it) and they use the text for a grade higher (so G2 uses the G3 textbook)

The last time I attended a curriculum meeting on this, I wrote the following:

"the school was attempting to explain the universe of primary school mathematics and how it was combining 'chinese' maths with 'western' maths to give our children access to a well rounded mathematics experience and knowledge. Apart from the more obvious things, like the fact that that subvertive notion of negative numbers is introduced earlier in "Western" maths than "Chinese" maths, and "Chinese" maths is better with number theory and notions of lowest common denominator etc. etc. There are different learning emphasis. For Chinese maths it is on computational skills, practise, attitudes, habits i.e. a content and manipulation emphasis. For Western maths, it is on play, experience, material, inquiry, generalisation, communication , reasoning, handling data - i.e a process emphasis. And the quote (I forget from whom) that "without content, you can't apply process" - did I hear just a cheer from all western parents world wide?  All very interesting, and enough to leave me feeling - great, my kid is literally getting the best of both mathematical worlds."

English - as we're native speakers in our family (at least most of us), this is the least of my worries.  Certainly I don't have the impression my kids are falling behind.  Initially I had some concerns that they were not getting enough exposure to writing in English, but I'm not sure if that was since they were little and not capable of really writing much anyway, or because the school was initially favouring speaking and reading for the non-Native speakers to catch up.  My biggest concern would be that apparently they've changed the curriculum and text book about 5 times in the last 7 years (hearsay), which is pretty frustrating for the rather hard working English teachers and I think may lead to some of the turnover in the teachers.  They seem to vacillate between teaching it as a first and a second language.  My kids don't get any extra tutoring in English and I don't think they're behind their peers in reading or writing.  All I do with them is make sure I read to them every single night before going to bed from a book which is higher than their own personal reading level.

I'm not sure how well the Chinese student body is faring in English - I have heard some grumbles, but that's not an issue I'm worried about personally, and certainly English is much easier to catch up with than Chinese.  Also given they're only spending 30% of their school time on it, I'm pretty impressed.

The school does participate in all kinds of standards based testing that is world wide, and I think the scores are pretty much OK.  Of course there are huge variations between children and within a child for various subjects, but I'm a firm believer in time and persistence which will iron out the differences sooner or later.

You also need to listen very carefully to the school.  It's a 12 year process.  So at any one given point within the process they're going to be "ahead" or "behind" in either language.  So comparisons along the way are mainly useless.  You've got to compare your child to the expectations of the school at any point for any subject and ask if your child can meet those standards, and if not what you and the school is going to do about it.  And I can tell you, those standards are not paltry.  The school is very rigourous academically (see note on homework) and it's very easy to fall behind if you're not vigilant, and you need to ask for help on time if there is a problem.

Bilingual options in Hong Kong

Q: would you would recommend it to a family that speaks mostly english with some cantonese, some external mandarin tutor support (1 class a week). 
Q: the balance between the chinese and english languages is good enough for a native english speaking student to not be bored or fall behind, 
Q: are the kids able to learn cantonese in the playground? 
Q: why did you choose this school over the other billingual schools?


I'm going to need a hand here, since I don't know the insides of all the bilingual schools here, so I'll write what I know and hope that the rest of you will fill in the blanks.


1.  Would I recommend ISF to an English speaking family
Yes of course I would.  With some provisos.  In the first case, make sure you child begins in the foundation year.  That will give him/her a good basis of speaking and understanding before the more academic side of things start.  In the second place, make sure that learning Chinese is something that is mutually desirable.  The longer we work in this bilingualism thing, the more I realise that motivation isn't something, it's EVERYTHING.  If a child is not motivated or even resistant to learning Chinese you're going to have a hell of a battle on your hands.  If they're motivated (and you can play a role in this) you're 80% there already.


You also have to be prepared to sacrifice some of your holiday time and free time to extra classes and help and holidays in China in order to give more exposure to Chinese in a natural setting that HK can't provide.


2.  The balance of Chinese / English
It starts out at 70/30 and moves to 50/50 by the end of primary.  I have a daughter who has just turned 9 and as reading and comprehending at a 12 year old level.  She has never once complained of boredom or that things are too slow for her.  A native speaker doesn't necessarily know everything about grammar or writing.  Classes are small enough and there is enough differentiation to ensure that they're all challenged.  She just read chapter books when the rest were reading picture books.  So what.  And so what if some kids read picture books when others are reading easy readers.  It's not a race, it's a journey.


3.  Cantonese in the playground
Most people I speak to have said that English is the dominant playground language.  My son actually said to me he'd quite like to learn Cantonese, but hardly anyone uses it at school.  So unless your child makes Cantonese friends and makes sure they speak in that language I'd hazard a guess at no.  The school does provide after school Cantonese classes to those who are interested.
If you want Cantonese in the playground apparently Victoria Shanghai is a good school for that.


4.  Why did I choose it?
Well, what are the other options?  As a foreigner who doesn't speak Cantonese, I needed a school where the playground language wasn't Cantonese, so that my kids were only a little out of their depth some of the time rather than completely out of their depth all the time.
I also wanted a school that was on HK island to minimise commute time (and not too far away).  And I wanted a "balanced" school that didn't do too much of the local school rote learning and exam pressure.  


As far as I understand the Putonghua/English options are:


ISF
CIS
Renaissance College
Victoria Shanghai Academy
Kiangsu & Chekiang International School
Yew Chung International School
Singapore International School


I am not familiar with all the schools but as far as I know, CIS is almost impossible to get into without a HK$3.6m debenture.  We enquired about application and the lady on the other end was pretty abrupt and rude about it being a hopeless situation for us to even consider (wasn't sure if that was a bad day or an enduring attitude).  When we were considering moving the kids to a bilingual environment, our neighbour had an older child at CIS but was sending her younger daughter to ISF (something that is common at ISF by the way, a lot of CIS parents sending the younger kid to ISF).  Her reasons were the incredible snobbism of CIS, a lot of conspicuous wealth and even more importantly, they didn't learn as much Chinese as they'd hoped due to the streaming system.

ISF doesn't stream.  Now, 2 years on, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...  ISF is also expensive, and there is some conspicuous wealth there (more and more as the school gets bigger and bigger).  You have considerable more chance of getting in as they have 9 or 10 foundation classes.  It's not cheap though.

Victoria Shanghai is very well liked by people I know who go there (foreign and local).  Kids will need some Cantonese to cope with the playground.  It's a more "middle class" school from what I hear, and definitely more affordable.  I'm not sure about academic pressure there.

Kiangsu - I know parents who have left their daughters there and put their sons in ISF.  That says a lot I think about the academic demands and the needs of young boys.  I am not familiar with the school otherwise and cannot make any other comments.

Yew Chung - I understand that neither the international nor Chinese stream is bilingual, rather that they have classes each day in the other language.   I don't know of anyone with their kids there, so can't comment further

Singapore International - I have one friend with a son in primary there.  They are a local family and primarily sent him there for the strong math and science programme.  As far as I can tell she's very happy with the school.  They do follow the Singapore curriculum with simplified characters.

International Montessori school - I have removed this school on the recommendation of people attending it.  Appears there are substantial issues at the school.

Some of my readers before have suggested St. Stephen's college, I'm not sure from their website whether they mean Cantonese or Putonghua.  Certainly their campus looks lovely and their emphasis on music and arts.  Can anyone add to this?

Homework, assessments and other pressure

Q: I am trying to figure if it is feasible for us to consider realistically in terms of being able to cope with homework load.


What I'm saying has to do with primary, and I've only experienced primary 1, 2 and a bit of 3.


Homework:
I'll start with this topic first, as it's the hardest part.  There are tables of each grade and how much homework the teachers are allowed to assign per day.  For my son (grade 2) that means 1 hour of homework plus 15 minutes English reading and 15 minutes Chinese reading.  PLUS (and this is critical if your kid isn't the fastest off the block or gets distracted in class) any class work that is unfinished. 
For my daughter in Grade 2 I think that it's supposed to be 90 minutes plus the reading.  She seldom brings home unfinished class work, and generally finishes her home within the required time.


I will also add that per day, includes Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays.


If you have extra activities in the afternoons, that means that there is no time left in their days for hanging out and having fun.  I don't know when last my kids watched TV for example - not that I encourage it or they particularly are interested in it.  My daughter things homework and reading is fun though.  My son is of another opinion.


I'll admit to getting a sick feeling in my stomach every afternoon as the day's homework appears in my email box.


Tutors:
Most families, particularly those with no Chinese in the home have at least one tutor.  Otherwise often you just  don't know how to do some of the Chinese and Chinese Math homework (I've been studying Chinese full time for more than a year and I still get stumped most of the time).  The tutors are not "teaching" them Chinese or anything else, they're basically just supervising the homework and making sure it gets done and any questions or problems they have are addressed.  Also to do the daily reading with them.


My daughter had a tutor 1x a week to help with her reading for the first year and she's not had any tutors since.  This is an exception.  Her playmate who was here today (Chinese daddy, non-chinese mother) still has a tutor 3x a week.  I'd say that is normal. 


My son has a tutor between 1 to 3 times a week depending on the tutor's study schedule and how much help he needs.


Assessments:
They have English Math, English, Chinese & Chinese Math assessments every month.  They have 15 English spelling words to learn every week and get tested on them once a week.  They get a list of Chinese words and a Chinese sentence (or sentences or  paragraph depending on the grade) to study for a dictation every week.
That puts a lot of pressure on them.  And parents can get manic about the preparation and the results.  And that sets the kids off putting pressure on themselves and each other.  I don't do anything special to prepare besides what they get in the homework, but obviously it's not enough for some kids ....


Other pressure:
They have these "achievement" booklets which list all the awards etc. the kids get.  I throw mine in the bin without reading it, otherwise I'd get a complex about the fact that my kids aren't world class swimmers, chess players, ballroom dancers, gymnasts, judo etc. etc. stars if not all of the above by now.  You have to make sure you're firm in your shoes and don't get swept up with all this achievement stuff.  I avoid certain parents and stick with the relaxed and cool ones otherwise you'd go insane.  My kids occasionally mention the awards and stuff but don't seem to get to worried about it.


I don't know that they have enough time to hang out and reflect and "get bored".  I don't know if we're not just a bunch of particularly lazy caucasians and not "with the picture" of what it takes to be bilingual.

The whole schooling thing

I realise that many of my readers have "discovered" this blog because I'm open about where my kids go to school, went to school and the various pros and cons.

ISF has had a particularly bad rap on some of the parenting forums, some of it historically justifiable (perhaps), some of it due to peoples' personal axes to grind or needs that weren't met, some due to their particular circumstances, background or assumptions.

I've always tried to present a balanced view overall, although some days one thing or another will make me overwhelmingly happy about my choice (like today they're off school and both have classmates around for playdates and a lot of the language I'm hearing is Putonghua), and some days I go into despair - personal or general.

So, Supernova has presented me with a bunch of questions.  I have little time between right now and Tuesday (my final Grammar exam) to answer them all adequately, so I'll post them, below and then each sub-section as a separate posting.  I'll subsequently try and fill in the blanks and I'd invite people to give their own point of view.

thanks for responding to my post, i would like to get your opinion on isf as upon asking other people about the school i have heard lots of negative comments regarding admin disorganisation, lack of teacher stability, teachers' organisation of students and teaching subjects in class, asking for excess monies on top of school fees and drifting between wanting to be an ib school and a local school. can you tell me about any positive or negative changes made by new principal and academic level of chinese, maths and english compared to other schools with ib system. can you also tell me how the school has changed over the few years your kids have been there, as i am trying to understand the reasons behind all the bad press they had and find out how it is really there. would you would recommend it to a family that speaks mostly english with some cantonese, some external mandarin tutor support (1 class a week). am trying to figure if it is feasible for us to consider realistically in terms of being able to cope with homework load and whether the balance between the chinese and english languages is good enough for a native english speaking student to not be bored or fall behind, are the kids able to learn cantonese in the playground? why did you choose this school over the other billingual schools and lastly what are your criticisms and praises for the school as an experienced parent. many thanks, 

my off-line self

To clarify a little about the online / off line reality I experience.  I too have met some fantastic people through this blog, you know who you are, and thank you for insisting on getting to know the corporeal me as opposed to the virtual me.

The thing is, I guess I get to say my say online.  Uninterrupted. Without anyone chipping in and taking over and dominating the conversation.  In real life I can be quite shy.  Until I know you a lot better, I will sit and listen to you.  And listen and listen.  You will never find out much about me.  You will never know what I have to say or to contribute.  You will have no idea about my ideas or my "musings" (which apparently many of my readers seem to appreciate).

I will sit there and listen to conversations which often will not gain any depth, which will spiral around complaints about amahs, Hong Kong, schools, teachers, pollution, husbands, children.  I'll be locked at the side of the table where all the girls are sitting, and if I dare stand with the men, I'll be looked at in a certain way.  I'm not saying that the girls conversations are automatically less interesting.  But we're guarded.  We know how small the world is here.
And everything is always fine, and the kids are always doing great.  There never are any problems, no loneliness, no depression and no mental health issues personally or in any of our families.
And you my virtual readers.  You say things to me that no person in conversation would say to another person in real life.   You challenge me.  You make recommendations.  You question my assumptions.  You're honest in a way that strangers are not to each other.  But we're not strangers on line.

On line I can be eloquent and beautiful and elegant in my words, my mind can shine where in real life my physical being could get in the way of what's going on in your assumptions about me.

And as grit pointed out, online we can find ourselves and each other with more ease.  Socially it takes many hours, or the deep insight of a 7 year old who can accurately tell his mother which other mothers she needs to spend her time with, before like minds can meet.

Did you know?

Despite considering myself to be a reasonably well read and informed person, I'm constantly coming up with stuff that I had absolutely no idea about.  I guess that's what makes life interesting and keeps it so.

This morning while waiting for the lift at the university, I was struck by one of the many posters advertising events, talks, discussions, lectures.  This one was about menstrual leave in Japan.  Now menstruation remains one of the few words that seldom see the light of day in public, so my attention was piqued.  Apparently in Japan, since the 1940's women are entitled to menstruation leave, separate from sick leave, etc.  I was joined by my Thai classmate and he was also interested to read it.   We got into our class and immediately asked our Korean classmate who'd spent quite a time working and living in Japan.  She was surprised that we'd never come across it before and stated it was quite normal, even in South Korea where she was from (I subsequently found out South Korea, Japan, Indonesia and Taiwan are the countries with this in their labour legislation).  Of course, she added, no-one who is serious about their career or equity in the workplace would ever dream of using it, and it was all a bit 麻烦. But it was there. And I've never heard of it.